Hard to believe that this hand happened the same night... I guess this just proves that Rick is right again.... I ain't trainable. As is often the case, flopping bottom set in Omaha 8 No Limit is death. Not many times however do you convert that set to quads on the turn to lose to a straight flush on the river. It may be difficult for some, but dammit, I can do it!
The problem again was early position. I have always hated early position especially when you are trying to maximize the amount of chips that you are able to collect on any given hand. Being out of position is probably one of the worst hurdles to overcome. In this hand, I did make a mistake and I believe that it happened on the turn. Here is the setup. We're playing $2/$5 Pot Limit Omaha 8. There are about 8 of us at the table in Cary and it has been a rather calm night compared to how they usually run.
I'm the small blind and Ron is the big blind. My hand is not anything to get excited about but with limpers all around, it is easy for me complete the blind to see the flop as I am relatively certain that Ron will not raise. If it does, it is an easy hand to get away from.
My hand:
I'm not certain of Ron's other two cards. It seems that when you have a stroke at the poker table, it is possible for you to lose some short-term memory. That most certainly is what happened here.
Ron's hand:
I would like to say that he had the Ace of clubs and maybe a low wheel card. That is easy for me to put him on as he will typically not play any hand that doesn't have either 2 Aces in it or at least a suited Ace with 2-3 wheel cards in it.
I don't believe there was any straddle on this particular hand and no raise pre-flop so we're probably looking at a $40 pot. Here comes the flop:
As is normally the case, I will make a bet when I flop a set just to see who else is out there and alert. I don't completely recall, but I am fairly certain that I bet the pot. As Rick has taught me many times, he will normally flop the top set when I flop the bottom set so I really do this just to build the pot for Rick... it's something that the Juice and I feel strongly about. Ron calls which immediately sends up the radar... maybe a better set, maybe the nut low draw with a flush draw. But definitely a hand. And Joe calls. And there may have been 1-2 more calls... again... the stroke.
I can't describe how pretty the turn card was....
And here's the problem. Early position. If I bet, everyone goes away. If I check, if I am lucky enough to have just made someone a boat when my quad-7 hit the board. I will probably get paid. So.... I check. And of course, it checks all the way around.
Then the river:
I can't be too concerned about the straight flush as I bet the flop when the two straight flush cards hit the board. Ron most certainly would not have called if that the only draw that he had so he must have had a low draw with it. As fate would have it, I didn't have many more chips and there were still a couple of people behind me so rather than raise it, Ron just checked hoping that others would call. No one did....
As I was in first position and I am the perfect picture of not slow-rolling, I announced .... I've got the 2nd nut. And after a minute or two in order to build suspense, Ron turns over the straight flush and says something like, "I've got the first nut."
It certainly wasn't a surprise to me when he called my bet on the river. I fully expected him to have it when he called. But the slow-roll wasn't necessary. He may not have done it on purpose, he may just be slow in general. Perhaps....
At any rate, it is almost eerie that both these slow-plays were thwarted by Jacks and both involved a flop with the 7 & the 8. Too spooky to comprehend?
Let the suck outs begin!
4 comments:
That was definitely bad luck, but I disagree a bit with your reasoning behind checking the turn. I would definitely bet, for a couple reasons. First and foremost, it's pretty much a 100% guarantee that someone has at least some kind of a low draw, and the last thing you want to do is give them a free draw at half the pot.
Second, if someone's got 8-8 or Q-Q, they're almost certainly going to call (or raise) anyway, so you might as well bet. Any other hand that they might make on the river (straight or nut flush, for example) will most likely not result in you getting paid when you bet the river, since the board paired on the turn.
Still, what a typical Omaha butt-f*cking... sadly we've all had them!
Yep, you're right.... but! You know my play and as soon as I check there, everyone thinks that I'm weak or on a low draw so "IF" someone had the big boat, they bet! It goes back to one of your basic rules of Omaha 8 (which I probably need to re-post by the way since O8 is getting so popular now).... if there's a card that will cost you money, get ready, it's coming!
I probably didn't explain my second point clear enough, but your reason for attempting to check-raise (hoping someone has a big boat) is one of the reasons to go ahead and bet yourself. Almost never will someone fold that hand to a bet, and you might even get them to raise (especially if they have Q-Q). In my mind anyway (as warped as it may be...), there's just no good reason to check there.
It's a completely different situation if there's no low draw. While all players have their own style, you can at least justify checking there, hoping to check-raise someone with Q-Q or 8-8, or possibly allowing someone holding a big pocket pair like A-A or K-K to boat up and pay you off.
I don't remember how many chips you had in relation to the pot, but I think I'd have made at least a small bet even if there wasn't a low draw out there. I think good players may be somewhat split between betting and checking the turn if there were no low draw, but unless you're close to 100% certain you can check-raise someone for all his chips, I believe you simply can't afford to give a free river card here.
Of course, it turns out it wasn't the low card that screwed you, but that's not the point of the discussion. One of the main criteria when deciding to slow-play is whether or not your opponent can improve his hand to the point to where it's still worse than yours, but good enough to where he'll pay you off. Even without a low draw, there were three possible cards that could come (Q, 8, or 9-10-Jc) that would quickly turn your powerhouse hand into the non-nuts. Again, it's a matter of style, but for me, three outs in this game is three too many, and as we've seen all too often, two more than is needed... :-)
Thinking back to the turn, I had to put Ron on turns Queens or eights full, he just typically doesn't even make that call without a big hand and unlike the Juice, I know that he doesn't consider a gut-shot straight flush a big hand.... I do see him maybe making the call with nut flush/nut low and maybe both, but I just don't remember what his other two cards were.
One thing for certain, if I bet the turn, he goes away and perhaps I do isolate to someone who is almost drawing dead. It is for certain that if Ron folds there, I scoop the pot after the river. Hind sight is a beautiful thing....
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