Quite a bit of "heated" discussion at PKR last night after I went all-in on the flop and my 2 callers agreed to "Check it down". As it turned out, I was beaten all the way... so, no-harm, no-foul, right? Actually, I'd say more than half the players saw nothing wrong with the agreement, regardless of how it affected my action already in play. Regardless, I disagree and feel that such an agreement violates common poker regulations and rules of etiquette.
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Thoughts?
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...
PUBLIC CARDROOM RULES (Poker):
While specific rules vary from casino to casino, most public poker cardrooms have similar rules and regulations.
- Players must act in turn
- Players should not telegraph or otherwise indicate intentions to act prior to their turn to act. Players may not advise other players how to play a hand.
From Robert's Rules of Poker, by Bob Ciaffone, a widely referenced set of poker rules:
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
- Deliberately acting out of turn.
- Agreeing to check a hand out when another player is all-in.
- Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play
5 comments:
No player should ever say "Do you want to check it down" never. I've heard this in tourneys and cash games and I think it's just pathetic. With that said, it becomes stratagic to check it down in a tourny without a side pot, but players should be good enough to know when to and not when to check a pot down. They should not have to say it. That's my 2 cent.
This was clearly a breach of etiquette, and the dealer should have nipped it in the bud. There are several reasons why, not the least of which is possible collusion between the two "checkers." Very few hands are favorites against any two random hands.
Most of us have seen a similar scenario, where two butt-buddies raise and re-raise each other, then once they drive a third player (the "sucker in the middle") out of the pot they immediately check it down, not even trying to hide their intentions.
Some of the other breaches are more common, like telegraphing intentions. One thing I see a lot of is when a player bets in early position, then a player in late position counts out the chips needed to call and has them ready, hoping a couple others in front of him notice and make the call, giving everybody "pot odds." Sometimes I believe this is an entirely innocent move, but you can usually tell who is doing it intentionally or not.
And, of course, the most common one, making influential statements. A definite no-no in a casino, but I believe there's a little grey area depending on the home game you're playing. In many games it's accepted practice to make comments like "If anyone raises, I'm pushing all-in!"
Poker is a social game, and each game is unique in which rules are simply bent a little (and which rules are just obliterated altogether). My advice would be to speak your peace, but not make too big of a deal out of it. If you're a good player and it's a good game, then you'll have fun and win money regardless. There are a lot of games around town to choose from, and we all have the choice to play by the rules and practices of the house, or simply take our business elsewhere. Simply put, you can try to get the Mexican restaurant on the corner to start serving pizza, but it might be easier to just go to the Italian joint down the street...
Asking or telling another player to "check it down" is surely an etiquette violation, if not an outright rules violation. However, in a tournament situation, is it not in each of the "checkers" best interest to keep as many players in the hand as possible to increase the chance of eliminating the all-in player? I don't see anything wrong with players independently choosing this action, so long as no "collusion" takes place.
Absolutely right. Depending on the type of tournament, and where you're at in the tournament, it's often correct strategy for the two remaining players to check it down, especially if there's a dry side pot. As you said, two players can independently decide to check it down, they just can't verbalize their intentions.
I guess I assumed this was a cash game. I didn't know PKR had a game of any kind going on Sunday nights, but I would think I would've heard of a tournament (or a cash game, come to think of it).
Scott, was this really PKR, or was it at Ed's?
it was Ed's (aka PKR). Monday night. Sorry for the confusion.
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